The Development and Cancelled Premiere of Indians on Vacation

A premiere disappears three months before opening night, and the artists are told after the decision is already made. That’s the moment that frames our conversation with mezzo-soprano and broadcaster Marion Newman, a singer we’ve long admired for her voice, her wit and her steady insistence on truth.

We talk about Indians On Vacation, the new Canadian opera adapted from Thomas King’s novel, and why Marion was drawn to Mimi: an Indigenous, middle-aged woman who stays alive, loves hard, laughs often and refuses to let anxiety impact her travel. Marion walks us through Mimi and Bird’s relationship and the rare power of a story that centers Indigenous joy, curiosity and normal life without pretending history isn’t there.

From there, we zoom out to the the development of the operatic Indians on Vacation: pandemic-era workshops, the thrill of a Banff sing-through with orchestra, and then the gut punch of cancellation after years of work involving roughly two dozen Indigenous artists. Marion speaks plainly about what it feels like when stories are shaped inside institutions where final authority still often sits outside the community being represented, and why meaningful consultation can’t be an afterthought.

We close with what comes next: Stories Don’t Die: The Artists of Indians on Vacation, a May 9 event in Toronto presented by Against the Grain Theatre featuring selections from the score and a live conversation with the audience.

All episodes of The Opera Glasses podcast are hosted by the editor of Opera Canada, currently Michael Jones after Elizabeth Bowman hosted seasons 1 and 2. Follow Opera Canada on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and Visit OperaCanada.ca for all of your Canadian Opera news and reviews. 

Transcript

Welcome and Why This Conversation

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Hello and welcome to the Opera Glasses Podcast, the official podcast of Opera Canada magazine. I'm Michael Jones, your host, and I am beyond thrilled today to be speaking with somebody that I once referred to in a review as a national treasure. Marian Newman, who is a Mezza Soprano, who is also a radio host. She hosts CBC's Saturday afternoon at the opera. And she, as a singer, has been involved in the development of so many new works and also involved in discussions around truth and reconciliation, what that looks like in the arts, and the development of music and opera from and with an Indigenous identity. And I wanted to get into that with her today and talk a bit about that. But this is a very special broadcast because it is leading up to a special performance that I will speak about later, but that has resulted from the cancellations this year of the full production of Indians on Vacation, which is an opera that's been in development for a couple of years now. And Marion has quite a history with the development of it. It was based on the novel by Thomas King, the novel of the same name. And so I wanted to get into that in advance of this special performance. It's coming up in Toronto, I believe, on May 9th. And we will get, I will give more details about that where you can learn about it. But first, I wanted to welcome Marion to the Opera Glasses podcast, to have her talk about the piece and why it and its development has been important to her. Marion, in my time in Saskatchewan, I was taught to welcome people by saying in Mehiao, getatum scat in the wow. So welcome to the Operaglasses Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Gayla Castla, as we say in my territory over on the West Coast.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Can you tell us before we start a bit about your background and what your background is as an Indigenous woman?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Certainly. I am First Nations. I uh belong to the Quagilf band at the northern tip of Vancouver Island. And that comes through my grandfather's side on my dad's side. And also my grandmother on my dad's side was Stolo. And so that's in the upper Fraser Valley on the mainland. And I grew up um immersed in the West Coast culture, the salmon people, um, going to potlatches, being named and recognized and held to account and celebrated by my community right from the very beginning. And um on my mom's side, I am English, Irish, and Scottish in heritage. Uh my settler grandparents were, my grandma was born in Saskatchewan and my grandpa came as a little tiny baby. So my great-grandparents were gifted land in the Saskatchewan uh area. And um, it wasn't until my mom was marrying my dad that they started to realize that there was a whole history, uh, which they delved into in their retirement. They spent a lot of time attending um rallies and demonstrations in support of indigenous rights and learning and getting their friends to learn as well, so that we could just, my my siblings and I could just grow up as little humans and do the things that we should do. Um, and music was included in that.

Indians on Vacation – Plot and Characters

SPEAKER_02 3:54

And as we're starting, and I don't want to speak much about me and my journey in this, but as we're starting, I will acknowledge that my understanding of this comes from my heritage as well. And I am a white man of settler descent, actually quite similar to your mother's side of the family. So my heritage is English, Scottish, Irish, and Welsh. The name Jones comes from the Welsh portion of my name. And although most of my family was in southwestern Ontario for for their entire time, we've been here, oh, since the late 1800s, early 1900s. Uh a small group of my family was also benefited from land gifts that happened in Saskatchewan. So we have some similarities in in our background, at least in half of your background. Um, and I came to my Indigenous learnings very late in life as I tried to correct all of the things that I wish I had learned when I was in the Canadian school system back when I went there. Welcome, Marion, to the Opera Glasses Podcast. Um, I'd like to start by actually speaking about the Thomas King book, not about the author, but about the book. Before this project began, I've I was fortunate enough to read this book a couple of years ago. Um, before the project began, did you know the novel Indians on Vacation?

SPEAKER_00 5:32

I did. I had been reading other books by that author um throughout my life and uh always found the approach of humor and and um truths really refreshing. That's a good mix.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Which is part of what appealed to me. Could you give the listeners a background, those who haven't read the novel, a background to what the story of Indians on vacation is about?

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Yeah, it's a couple who've been together for years, uh, Mimi and Bird. And Bird is um uh a journalist and a photo journal a photojournalist and a writer, and is very down on himself. He spends a lot of time in his own head dealing with, grappling with with his issues, which come in the form of demons, um, as they are named in the novel. And Mimi, his um bubbly, uh bright, happy, and sort of nudging wife, is the character that um that uh I would have played. And it is the first time I've come across a role in in a in a story like this where I truly identified as a middle-aged person who happens to be indigenous, and they decide to go on vacation, Mimi and Bird, and they go to Prague, and just all the wondro sights that you see are mentioned in that. And Bird the entire time is concerned that he's sweating too much, he might be dying. You know, he just immediately catastrophizes, and Mimi is aware of what he's doing and keeps saying, I told you to leave your demons at home. And so they go through all of these experiences on vacation together, but Bird's so much in his own head that you go into Bird's World and then Mimi yanking him out of it and saying, Look at this castle, or let's go check out this bridge. And um and just throughout the course of a normal couple's chat, they also talk about their histories, about an uncle that had gone off to Europe and they never found out really what happened to him or where he went. And he'd brought a medicine bundle with him that they wonder if they will ever come across somehow. And I guess he had sent postcards that gave them an idea of where he was, sort of a breadcrumb trails kind of thing. So they're going to places where that uncle was seeing the sights and trying to just shed the worries and concerns of the world and enjoy themselves like a normal middle-aged couple and to rekindle something in their relationship.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

From the you talked about the fact that you were really drawn to this character as a middle-aged woman of indigenous descent, much like Mimi is. So you were handed a role that has a lot of background. Was there anything else in particular about Indians on Vacation as a novel or Mimi as a character that really appealed to you?

Finding and Naming Bird's Demons

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Um, yes, I have been involved in telling Indigenous story through song and through opera uh for a long time. And all of those stories are desperately depressing. And they are truths that people need to know. But my characters were either raped or abused in some way or died uh throughout the course of the opera. Um, in the opera Missing, I'm lecturing about missing and murdered indigenous women. It's a character who really identifies with that and is trying to sort of shake up society and say, please notice that this epidemic is happening. And what is it that's missing in us that we just let it keep happening without engaging in a way that makes women safe? And it would be a makes all women safe situation if you do focus in on why Indigenous women aren't. Um, and also two spirit and girls or missing and murdered indigenous relatives, really. Um and so it is important to tell those truths. And I have been witness to many people starting their journey of understanding hard truths about this land that we live on, and um, through Opera being able to unable to shed those those truths and stories and to find their own pathways in how to grapple with reconciliation. So I think that those are really worth it, but they're very hard to carry. It's hard to get through those roles on stage without bursting into tears. And it's really hard to just shed, you know, along with your costume, uh, that character and the feeling of that character when you leave the theater. And it can take at least a month to get over performing one of those roles because you really do embody, no matter how much you create a safe safety net for yourself or or find ways of breathing it out or exercising it out or um finding counteractivities that bring joy, it's just there. And that is part of being an indigenous person is knowing all those things. Um but I was really excited to play someone who stays alive the entire time, who believes in joy, in curiosity, in learning about other people, and and through learning about other cultures, learning more about yourself. And I really identify that. I have traveled through Europe. I have gone to see those sites, reading the novel. It's like, oh, that bridge, it's amazing. And I remember reading all about it and walking over it a few times and walking up to the castle and all these experiences that I have collected and the wonderment of it. Um so just to get to play a character who has so much in common with my reality. Um, there's an aria that that Royce Vavrick, the librettist, picked out of the novel about um Mimi's everyday kind of um activity. And it's get up and have breakfast and go to work, and you come home and you eat some dinner and watch some TV, and then you get up and you eat your breakfast, and it repeats and repeats and repeats, and it's just the sort of normal everyday can get quite boring. And it's nice to shake yourself out of that and and rekindle curiosity and imagination by traveling. Um, and that's just something I totally relate to.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

And one of the things that that I remember in particular about Mimi is that while Bird travels with his demons in tow, Mimi is a source of light and joy. And in fact, she tries to help Bird cope with his demons by naming them. And you spoke earlier about catastrophizing being one of his demons. And because of the beginning of Kat in that word, she's named that particular demon Kitty. And Kitty's an ongoing character that appears throughout the novel whenever Bird has these questions. But that's so much inherent for me and who Mimi is. She brings this joy of just, you know, she wants to acknowledge those dark things are there, but to also have fun and enjoy and be light in spirit.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

And in naming exactly who those characters are and what makes them rise, being able to say, and now you can put them aside and focus on where we are right now.

The Development of the Indians on Vacation Opera

SPEAKER_02 13:31

There is real joy in the character of Mimi, but also I think in the relationship between Mimi and Bird. Now, Indians on Vacation, the Opera has been in development for a number of years. It was written by Ian Kewson, and Royce Favreck, as you mentioned, wrote the libretto. It was being developed to be premiered in 2026 in a sort of co-production where it would premiere first at the Edmonton Opera and then it would travel to Toronto to be performed by Against the Green Theater here. I'm interested first, though, in the development of this as an opera. When did you first become involved with it?

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Uh, deep pandemic. Um, Edmonton Opera had an initiative of putting together librettists and composers and giving them a chance to write a scene, some short scene that had something to do with what was important in that moment. And uh people chose different things, but I think mental health was a big one when they chose Indians on vacation. And I was invited to workshop that and to perform it. Uh, we went to Edmonton Opera and fully masked. We rehearsed and worked through it and talked about it, and made a video, which was available on the Edmonton Opera website for a time. Um, and it was just Bird and Mimi arriving in in Prague, and Mimi going, We're in Prague, this is amazing, and Bird going, like, I'm sweaty, it's sticky, and I don't know why I'm here, and maybe I'm gonna die of cancer, and and and Mimi's like, we can see this and we can go see that, and come on, like, let's go. And it was really fun to perform that, and it was at the time just in that was just in what was intended, just kind of two short scenes that make up, I don't know, maybe 15 minutes at the most. Um and so, but it was so successful. Uh, it was so fun, and people were so curious about it. The music is really beautiful, the libretto is just so understandable by any person, any relatable, I should say, um, that it got a longer life. And it's like, let's flesh this out and make it into a bigger story. So I was there right from the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

And so so you had a period in Edmonton, and I know you've done at I think two workshops or maybe more at the BAMF Center. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yeah, I've been available for one of the workshops the first time that was put together with orchestra, and we did a sing-through of the entire piece. Um, just lined up on the stage, every character with stands and some light, some lighting and some effects, some um a screen behind us that sort of gave a um a little bit of a showing of where we were in the opera, and you know, how that fleshes out the story a little bit. And we just sang through it for uh I think enthusiastic would be a very under saying of of how that audience responded. They were just so into it. That was on their feet instantly at the end. It was really heartwarming, exciting, and fun.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

That was the summer of 2025. Is that correct? Yes, that's right. Yes, I heard I heard about the workshop, and actually mostly I heard about the reactions. It was why I was so excited to see the opera itself. Um the cast of the opera is all Indigenous singers, with the exception of one. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Um, I think there are a couple that are not, two or three uh who are not, and they're playing non-Indigenous people. Okay. But all of the indigenous characters are played by Indigenous singers, yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

So we fast forward, and it was supposed to happen. It was supposed to be premiered in February. I was out in Edmonton for the joint conference of Orchestras Canada and the Association for Opera in Canada. And this was, in fact, one of the reasons why the conference had been scheduled when it was and where it was, was so that we could all see the Edmonton premiere of this work, which was very exciting. It meant I didn't have to wait until it was done by Against the Grain in Toronto. And the cancellation occurred about two months prior to that. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 18:19

It was November sometime.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

It was in November, so about three months before the scheduled premiere, you learned it was canceled, which I'm sure it was difficult for the for everyone involved. It was probably it was hard, I'm sure, for the companies to decide. And I I don't want to legislate that decision here because I'm sure that the the people who were involved with making those decisions made them in the best faith that they possibly could at the time. And but what was it like as an artist who had been involved in this project for five years, if it started during the pandemic, all of a sudden to find out that the premiere you'd been building towards in three months wasn't going to happen?

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Uh shocking, a gut punch. And I when we finally got around to actually talking about it with each other, the the team, um, we realized there were, I think, 24 Indigenous artists involved in some way, not just on stage, but also behind the scenes, our director. Um and it was announced before the news came down, just to us at least, in the um uh through email. Um and we did have a chance to possibly meet with them, but we were given very little notice, and I teach, so uh I'm at Uvik as well. So I I there was no way I could make that that chance to talk. They called it a town hall, but really it wasn't um enough time or effort to have a discussion. But it was just yet another moment in my career of this kind of piece telling indigenous story in which a decision was made without us. And I um I understand that these things are hard. I understand that people um don't know enough to believe, to know who to believe and how to um how to manage when accusations or such come down. But I don't think I've done any Indigenous story or story made into an Indigenous story, even um the first was Magic Flute with Vancouver Opera. There were people who didn't like it from Indigenous community. And it wasn't a big deal because there were enough of us who could have the conversation with them to say why we were going for it, why we wanted it to happen. Um, and so I've really watched a trajectory of of how what stories are being told, how they're being told, who is telling them. But the decision making always comes down to the non-Indigenous community. And when you have 24 artists involved in something like this, we're a wonderful resource for a discussion to happen. Um, it really made me think I have to stop being at the mercy of others, other companies. If I want to tell a story, it's gonna have to come from me, and I'm gonna have to be the person that whoever doesn't want it to happen, they talk to me and my indigenous colleagues. And that's really what it came down to. I just felt yet again my voice is being taken away in more ways than one. My job is being taken away. My opportunity to tell a story that I think is really important for an audience to um witness um of Indigenous normality and joy. And my voice in the decision-making process. So I was extraordinarily frustrated, to say the least.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

And since that time, you have had a chance to sit down with the artists who were involved with this process, those people. And how did that occur? And what did that help you find movement forward, or at least us a better place for the work?

Controversy Around Thomas King and the Right to Choose

SPEAKER_00 22:35

It was really important for us to meet and Against the Grain convened us, paid our way and our accommodation and for our time to meet in Toronto. I think the Canadian Opera Company donated some space for us to meet in, and we spent an entire day sitting in circle together. And we started out in circle, just saying who we were and what role we would have played in the in the overall production and how we were feeling. And it started started somewhere to my left. And by the time it got around to me, a lot of my colleagues had spoken already. And by the time it got to me, I was like, I was just going to say I was a little irritated or angry about this, but I am furious. And just the feeling welling up of how much it disrupted my colleagues, especially the younger ones, who this would be a breakout for them. A colleague who was meant to perform, and she was invited to perform an entire season at Stratford that she gave up in order to do this project. To have that just pulled out from under her is, I mean, not just that one gig, but the next one. And there was another one on the that hadn't been announced yet, but another company who wanted to remount it. I was furious. And again, what I like what I said before, just that we weren't involved. And listening to the intelligent, thoughtful um reflections of everybody around the circle. Nobody yelling, nobody screaming, um, just just sharing openly and honestly and with so much kindness, and there was so much room being left for those who might not know any better. Um just they're the people who deserve to be heard. And so it was that was the first time around the circle. And then uh Yvette and Against the Grain, um, Heather of Against the Grain had a list of possible paths we could take, things we could talk about. And the next pass through was where do we go from here? And one of my thoughts was you know, if if it's true that there is no such thing as bad publicity, this thing could go viral if we were to be brave enough to do something with that score. Of course, we talked about um the author not being Cherokee and what that has meant uh to the story. But in that I was able to share, and a few other people were as well, that we've known about the controversy, the possible controversy for a long time. And the very first time in Edmonton, in I think 2020, when we engaged in this, the beginning of this story, I brought it up. And the next workshop, I brought it up. And the following workshop in Banff, I brought it up. And so it wasn't a surprise. We could have had that conversation at any point. And I had had lots of time to think about, you know, who does tell our stories? And I think about an opera I won't name that was entirely made by non-Indigenous men that I performed in, and it was a great success, and it really hurt me to tell a story in that way. Um, about all of the operas that have been commissioned, the subject comes from non-Indigenous men and companies. Um, so they've been determining which stories would be turned into operas and what the deadlines would be and who would be involved in them for the most part. Uh and I've been there witnessing that for a long time. And so even knowing that there was a possible controversy, um, I decided that the story was valuable for many reasons. And that I am not aware of another story about just being normal and having fun that has so much wit and joy in it that could take the place of this one and be so perfectly operatic, that has the right number of characters and role sizes for people at different levels to enter into this realm of opera, um, telling stories of them of their own. So I was, I just decided it was worth it for me. And it turned out the rest of the circle felt that it was worth it for them in some way, too, even knowing what that controversy was. So I've I mean, in the theater world, uh, Shakespeare has been indigenized. Um, I was part of that magic flute that was indigenized with Vancouver Opera. There are, there is a um a history of indigenizing stories. So if this story of Indians on Vacation is not actually indigenous, we can indigenize it. And I've been part of all these workshops, and Royce and Ian are two collaborators who actually listen to feedback, which is very valuable and a little bit rare in some circles. Um, and so I know that bits of me are in there, and I am absolutely 100% sure I am indigenous, and that counts for something. Avette was involved in all of it, um, and several others. Uh so I just feel like we should get to choose whether or not we want to tell this story, and that it, I am perfectly happy to stand and have an argument with other Indigenous community who don't feel that way. We don't have to agree on everything. The idea, I mean, we all, those of us who are First Nations or Metis and we have a card that comes from the government, we share that experience, the connection of government and the following the rules that have been laid out for us and about us. But we come from different cultures, we come from different um teachings and ways. And so, of course, we're not all going to agree. Um, and that's part of the discussion. And I think we should be allowed to have it.

Stories Don’t Die – May 9th Performance

SPEAKER_02 28:52

And I one of the things that you you mentioned about cards and and and things like that, one of the pieces that I went through in my learning in Saskatchewan was this idea that at least my understanding and my belief now is that white men have tried for far, far too long, and any time would be far too long, but to dictate who is what and who gets to receive what. And so it was, I was absolutely clear in my time at SaskArts that I was never going to be the one who set myself up as the one who would ascribe this is who you are, then it just feels so incorrect to me. Now, out of this talking, at least I believe in as I've heard the story from Yvette, and by the way, we're speaking of uh the great Canadian theater director Yvette Nolan when we talk about Yvette. And Yvette is also been involved in opera for many years. She's written a really wonderful libretto, but she had been brought on to this project quite early and done dramaturgy as well as directing it. Um, as Yvette has led me to hear the story, out of that time when you were together in Toronto at the invitation of Against the Grain, has come this special one-day performance, at least currently one day performance on May 9th, presented by Against the Grain Theater at the very unfortunately named Terminal Theater in Toronto. Although I still like to think of it as the former Premier Dance Theater. It's at the Harborfront Terminal, which is where it gets that name. Um, but it is it is a one-day event called Stories Don't Die, The Artists of Indians on Vacation. Um, it's scheduled for May 9th. You can get more information at atgheater.com. But tell us what is happening, Marion. What's happening on May 9th? What is Stories Don't Die?

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Um, first, I just want to say a terminal is also where event where adventures begin.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

And you take off into a new adventure.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Great. Thank you. That's how I'm going to choose to think about that. That's a much happier image, and I will go away with that. Thank you for helping me.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Thanks for bringing it up. It fits well into the story. Um, we will be convening um to uh perform 30 minutes of the music. And a list was drawn up by the creators and Yvette. Um, and we were all given a chance to veto, and nobody did. Um, so we'll perform about 30 minutes of the music that are from different sections of the opera. So it'll give a nice overview of what what kinds of moods different scenes have and who the characters are. And it will include um a wonderful aria that I get to sing as Mimi in a bathtub called Ravishing Quagyulf Woman. We're gonna call it in this case because that's who I am, Quagyulf. Um, so um that and a discussion in which I think we will share, uh, each artist will share their statements and discuss amongst ourselves and include the audience in that discussion.

Hopes for Audience Dialogue and Next Steps

SPEAKER_02 32:30

Now you speak about being angry, being furious about everything that has transpired, but you've also talked about one of the things that drew you to this was that it was light, it was joyful, the peace. If you were asked to guess, and I know that the event on May 9th is still coming together as as we speak, what do you think the event on May 9th will feel like? Is it a celebration? Is it a what is it?

SPEAKER_00 33:05

I think it's going to be a joyful gathering, um, a chance to air some of this music that we've all been working on and loving, um, that we are so excited for an audience to hear and interact with. And I have great hope that the audience will be interested and will engage in a lively discussion in which all of those truths and difficulties, the messiness of it all, can be shared in that beautiful, calm way that always happens when Yvette Nolan is involved, where people um bring their best selves and um speak with care and truth, honesty. Um I'm hoping that it will be a chance to find out how how interested the audience might be to hear more. I think a place like Toronto that is used to all sorts of controversial stories and has so many communities all gathered together, it's like a city of little villages and people living shoulder to shoulder in a way that some of the smaller towns or other parts of Canada are not. Um, it's really diverse, and I think used to grappling with hard questions and the difficulties that arise, as well as the joys of living with cultures next to each other. So I'm really hopeful that there will be a lively curiosity by the audience to help us figure out if there's a pathway forward and some ideas of what that might look like for this piece.

Closing Thanks and Invitation to Attend

SPEAKER_02 35:02

I think that sounds very exciting. I can't wait to hear it myself. Um I would encourage as many of our listeners as possible who can be in the Toronto area on May 9th to come and hear the piece. I think I think that the development of new opera in Canada, of any new opera, is challenging enough. I question that we want to throw up any more more blocks, uh, you know, to create more blocks for anything, but particularly a story that involves as many indigenous artists as this one does. And I think that that's so I would really encourage our listeners to come out and to hear it. One of the great blessings, and that's how I always identify it as of my time in Saskatchewan was hearing the stories of so many indigenous peoples, and that was really something that I faced in a way that I'd never been forced to grapple with it before. And I would also encourage people that as important as I think that is, it's not nearly as terrifying once you're inside that journey as it sounds from the beginning. So so I'm I'm pleased to encourage people to attend that event. Once again, you can learn about it at atg theater.com. That stands for against the grain theater.com, so atg, as long just in case you weren't hearing my consonants very well. Um please look for more information. I want to do this in reverse order today because I am very, very conscious of wanting Marion's to be the last voice that's heard in this. So I'm going to thank everybody for listening now. This has been an episode of Opera Glasses, which is the official podcast of Opera Canada magazine. We have been covering the stories around Indians on vacation in various ways. In during my entire time, my entire two years with Opera Canada, and in fact, went ahead in December after we knew about the cancellation with publishing our winter issue that had a six-page feature written by Avette about the journey of this piece. I felt it was important for people to hear the voices of artists involved in that piece. And so we continued it. We're doing this podcast. We've decided, we've been, after discussion with Avette, we've decided to actually go and do a review of the concert, even though we do not normally review concerts. I think this is an important story, and the more different ways that we can share the ideas of this, the better. But that's me. I'm Michael Jones. I would thank you for listening. I'm thanking Marion for being our guest and for sharing these stories.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

And I would like to turn to her for the final words. Thank you so much for helping to give this story voice. Um you're part of the stories don't die movement, I think. And I am really excited to engage with audience. Um, know that you are coming to a space that allows for all people to be heard and for opinions to be aired. Um and I like making new friends, and this is an opportunity to do that. Come and witness what resilience looks like to us and be a part of it.