The Opera Glasses Podcast

Creating New Opera on the Rock: A Conversation with Cheryl Hickman

• Michael Jones, Elizabeth Bowman • Season 3 • Episode 4

Share episode

Cheryl Hickman is reimagining what an opera company can be in Newfoundland. As founder and artistic director of Opera on the Avalon in St. John's, she's built an organization that defies conventional wisdom about opera programming, audience development and digital engagement.

Starting with a budget of just $25,000 in 2009 after a successful international singing career, Hickman has grown Opera on the Avalon into a $1.2 million company ranked 12th largest among Canadian opera companies - the only company east of Quebec in the top 30. What makes this achievement remarkable is how it happened: largely by abandoning traditional repertoire.

"When we did Bohème, it really did not sell," Hickman reveals. "The first almost sold-out show we had was Dead Man Walking, because audiences knew it from popular culture." This discovery led to a radical shift toward commissioning and producing exclusively new works that resonate with local audiences. As Hickman puts it, "I'm never going to compete financially with the COC. But I also don't think anyone needs my version of Magic Flute."

During COVID, the company pivoted to outdoor filming across Newfoundland's spectacular landscapes, creating "The Rock Performs" series. This initiative blossomed into OOTA-TV, a free digital platform featuring commissioned mini-operas from renowned composers like Jennifer Higdon and Mark Adamo, collaborative projects with Indigenous artists, and documentaries that have reached worldwide.

Hickman challenges the notion that cultural excellence only happens in major urban centers: "For too long in our country we have decided what good art is and who could do good art... I'm not doing the same art they're doing in Toronto. Mine is different."

Recently appointed as the incoming Chair of the Canada Council for the Arts, Hickman will bring her perspective on regional arts development to national policy. Explore Opera on the Avalon's groundbreaking work at operaontheavalon.com, and discover why this Newfoundland company has something special for all opera lovers.

All episodes of The Opera Glasses podcast are hosted by the editor of Opera Canada, currently Michael Jones after Elizabeth Bowman hosted seasons 1 and 2. Follow Opera Canada on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and Visit OperaCanada.ca for all of your Canadian Opera news and reviews.

Michael Jones:

Welcome to Opera Glasses, the official podcast of Opera Canada magazine. I'm Michael Jones, your host, and today it's my distinct pleasure to be speaking with Cheryl Hickman from Opera on the Avalon in St John's, newfoundland. I first met Cheryl virtually shortly after assuming my new role as Editorial Director of Opera Canada. I was meeting with people in the opera community across the country, connecting with writers and with staff at various companies, particularly companies that I knew less well, and everyone said to me that I had to meet Cheryl. So we had a wonderful hour-long conversation that was wide-ranging and interesting. Cheryl can talk and I'm really thrilled to present her to the Opera Glasses audience.

Michael Jones:

But first some background. In the last analysis of the top 40 Canadian opera companies that was published in the fall issue of our magazine, opera on the Avalon was ranked 12th largest based on budget size, and it was the only company east of Quebec in the top 30. It's truly an amazing accomplishment in a city of just over 100,000 people. But Cheryl is a force of nature. After singing with opera companies and orchestras across North America and Europe, she became the founder and general and artistic director of Opera on the Avalon in 2009. She's a past chair of the Association of Opera in Canada, and just last week she was named the new chair of the Canada Council for the Arts, a position that will begin this summer, and I'm looking forward to seeing what Cheryl's thinking about the arts outside of our largest urban centres will bring to that position. But for today, we're here to talk about opera on the Avalon, so welcome, cheryl. Thank you.

Michael Jones:

Congratulations on your new appointment at the Canada Council.

Cheryl Hickman:

And it's great to have you with us. Thank you. So why don't you tell us how you startedon? I thought how ignorant is that Right? And it really doesn't speak to how I think art and culture enriches our communities so, and our communities across the country.

Cheryl Hickman:

So I was born in St John's, newfoundland. I went away for primarily all of my schooling. I went to UT in Juilliard for my graduate work and then sang as a professional artist for many years. But when my nephews were born, who are now in their early 20s, I was traveling and performing tremendously and I really miss my family. I have a very close family unit and I found it, you know, as a performing singer. I think I had. There was one year I had three days off, right and it's, and I, you know, you do these careers. Or you think, oh, I want to be a, you know, professional artist. And then you get in it and you think, oh, I didn't know, that's what. That was Right.

Cheryl Hickman:

So there was parts that I loved, but the, I would say being on the road, constantly being away from my family, was not really how I envisioned the rest of my life. So it got to be a little tiresome. And then I moved home and when I was home I was really frustrated by the lack of what I would consider, you know, very high quality opera. We just didn't have it right. We have a huge theater scene here, a very good musical theater scene, but we did not have a lot of classical music outside of the university and certainly no full scale opera. Just doesn't exist, and doesn't exist really in the Atlantic region.

Cheryl Hickman:

So myself and my friend, jen Matthews, who played piano for me and I'm sure audiences will know Jen, um she was we just decided to start the organization and we met for lunch and it was like, oh, let's have a. And it started as a summer festival. It's like let's do a summer festival, cause that's what we both knew and that was the system. Right, everyone, all singers, do summer festivals. Um, and that's how it was born. And we started with um a really small budget. I think the first year was $25,000. And now we're over, I think we're about 1.2 million, so it's grown exponentially.

Cheryl Hickman:

But also, what the organization first did, which was to be a summer festival, we quickly realized that we did not want to be in the business of having young, vulnerable singers pay us money to do summer programs when they could least afford it. They needed the advantages of working with an organization, but you know, the idea that they had to pay for it and often some of these summer programs are in a considerable amount of money was not what we should be in the business to do. So the company very quickly changed to be. You know, then we we had a kind of a mixed blend of older repertoire, more standard repertoire, and we used to have younger singers and, and what I would consider, you know, longtime lifers, as they say, the opera business, and so we had a mix of that. And then that changed as well to be.

Cheryl Hickman:

We really had a strategic look at what we thought the company could best be served doing, and that is not traditional work. So now I think we're the foremost commissioner and presenter of new work, both large and small, because we do smaller arias digitally as well, and we also do new commissions. So we currently have three new large-scale commissions underway one musical, two operas, uh, one actually, which is having its world premiere, uh, this week, uh, in san francisco in co-production with opera parallel and opera omaha um, and then a musical and an opera besides that and numerous smaller scale commissions for the digital uh, digital world. So that's what we do now. So you know it's it's been. Um I now, so you know it's been, I would say when I you know, when Jen and I first started Opera on the Avalon, we really did what we knew and that's what we focused on. And since then the journey has been what's missing. Where can we fit in the opera landscape? How best can we serve the community? How best can we serve singers?

Michael Jones:

And that's the work that we're doing now. Well, there's a lot for me to unpack in that and I want to come back, but I actually want to take a brief moment to remember Jennifer Matthews, who passed away a couple of years ago. Jenny was also my accompanist when I was in university, so she played for me as well accompanist when I was in university so she played for me as well and she had a massive impact on my life and I remember her both very fondly and I remember what a dynamo she was. It's interesting that almost everyone I've spoken to that comes out of the music scene in Newfoundland had some connection with Jenny, and so she's dearly missed. And it's really nice to hear about another one of the things that she helped to begin in Opera Avalon.

Cheryl Hickman:

She really did. And it's funny because when she passed one of her dear friends who lives in the Corner Brook area, where Jenny eventually settled, which is where her family was from, she had a catalog, like a wealth of all this music and you know all the Nico Castel books and stuff that you know it's huge investments and she called me and said I don't really have anyone out here who would like those. Do you want them? And I was like, yes, so I have her almost her entire catalog of music. And I was like, yes, so I have her almost her entire catalog of music. And I just looked at it two days ago because we're doing a piece from for digital work, and and I was like, let's call out Jenny, so Jenny is in our office in spirit every day. She's, yeah, she's beside me every day, she's just in a different form.

Michael Jones:

Well, it's a lovely memory to have, so I'm glad you have that Now you started. You said you started with largely standard repertory, but now you are really focusing on commissions and new work.

Cheryl Hickman:

Yeah, so we used to do. You know, again, I think we're told in our business that let's do the war horses. They sell the best, right? Carmen's, bohème's. I mean, if you look at the current repertoire, that's being done. It's what people traditionally think fill bums in seats. That did not work for us and I think it's because our community doesn't have a history of opera, right? So when we started to do that, I remember Bohème really did not sell. The first almost sold out show we had was Dead man Walking, because I think audiences knew it from popular culture. So Sound of Music sold like we did. Sound of Music, things that they could have read or seen in another way. They had great affinity for, they had great affinity for.

Cheryl Hickman:

And then we decided um, we had a special project, uh, for the 2016, which was the hundredth anniversary of Beaumont Hamill, and we decided to commission our first piece. I had no idea what I was doing. It's a lot of trial, trial and error and uh and again, I recommend that hardly sometimes when you don't know what you're doing Um and again it this is funny. You mentioned Jenny Matthews. Um, mike Cavanaugh was a huge part of Opera on the Avalon at the beginning too, and he really was so generous, as he often was with colleagues around the world, in saying, uh, how like, really lifting our game up right, getting uh. He was just an amazing presence and we would not also be here without Mike. So he was originally on that project and it just didn't gel and and Glenislation came in afterwards. But Mike was enough of a professional to say I'm not the person for this project and very graciously stepped away in a place that I don't think most people would have done Right. So that was, you know. Those are the things that I look back on that now and I realized what a sacrifice that was for him. But he did it for the better of the project and the company and that was a great learning lesson.

Cheryl Hickman:

So that was our first commission and we had massive sold out audiences. The governor general came. It was a very big, very big deal for us, and then it didn't cost as much as I thought it was going to right, because you always hear about how prohibitively expensive new work is and I thought, well, this is not much more outside the commissioning fees than normal shows you know cost us. So why can't we do this model, which was probably incredibly naive, but it worked for us. And then I started to realize, as we started to do, different rep audiences for us were very engaged with new work, work that told our stories, work that they resonated, resonated with them, and so we've completely moved away from anybody's work except our own.

Cheryl Hickman:

So and covid was a big jump in that too, because, um, we very quickly decided to stay working during covid, you know, we socially distanced but did a project called the rock reforms, which was all outside, still is um, and that was a way for us to stay invested in our communities and still hire artists. And that also then became a huge change for the company, because we decided to invest in digital as well, so in new commissions and so. So that's where we are now.

Michael Jones:

Well, I think it's interesting that you say Bohem didn't sell and yet you can sell new works, which is could be a lesson for some of our bigger companies. But I actually think is more importantly, it's a lesson in knowing your community, knowing who your audience is and what your role in the community is. Is that fair?

Cheryl Hickman:

I think that's fair and I was at a conference years ago, I think, that Association for Opera in Canada had, and I remember one of the speakers said the role of an arts organization is not for you to say here's what I have, I'm going to give it to you. My audience, my community, the community should lead that it's what they need, not what I need. And our community was very clearly saying I do not want to see a bohemian. I remember we did Tosca, for example, and when we do titles because we want to make sure that people can understand what everyone's saying and and the titles are what they are and people laughed in. We were really taken aback by it because some of those titles are ridiculous, right, it's, it's opera for an opera and educated and I and I say educated only in that the it's the tradition of their lives. They took that at face value and it was what it was For an audience just coming into it. They laughed because it is ridiculous, right, like some of the things you're saying are like I cannot believe somebody's singing that on stage. So I think traditional audiences suspend their disbelief. Our audiences did not, so. For them it was like this is ridiculous. Our audiences did not. So for them it was like this is ridiculous. Um, so we really, I think um, listen to our community, what they wanted, uh, what they felt had value to them. And also, I think we had a hard look at um, I'm never going to be able to compete financially with the COC I don't want to. But I also don't think that anyone needs another version of my flute. That's not the role I need to be playing in the landscape of Canadian opera producers and presenters. But I think what we do need, and what I see lacking in our country, is a lack of new work, the lack of work with new, young artists. That's, to me, what's really desperately needed.

Cheryl Hickman:

I look at musical theater, which has, you know, the reason why musical theater continues to thrive is because they're continually producing and commissioning new pieces. Opera. For some reason, we've decided that that's just a non-starter. So you know, and now I think it's changing a little bit. But you know, I think it needs to change dramatically we're not going to keep our art form alive if we just decide that we're going to keep regurgitating what we already know but make it a bit different in the staging. It's ludicrous. So you know, just because you want to sexy up Don Giov about, yes, we can rely on putting bums in seats with 95 carbons every year, but is that what's best for the art form? And I think we have to take the audience along with insisting on new work. And it's not the fact that it's a success or not, it's just that we're trying.

Cheryl Hickman:

And, to me, what I love about live theater is it's the collective humanity of both the people on stage and the audience. So it's how people react in a moment. That is a thrill that I don't care how much, because we do a lot of digital work, which I think is a needed component in the work that we do, but nothing will ever place a human being doing what I call, you know, opera, supernatural feats on stage. That's really, to me, the you know, the zenith of what we're doing. I think all of it has to exist together, but it's, you know, the way.

Cheryl Hickman:

Now even streamers are disrupting the current landscape. We have to start thinking about you know how we disrupt our current landscape, but I don't, I don't think continuing with you know, a 90% diet of what's put. You know, people in the audiences made them come to the theater before. I think we really need to have a hard look at whether, in the long run, that because our numbers keep going down and down and down and down and we have to stop that slide well, and I will come back to your video work because I do want to talk about that.

Michael Jones:

but but let's talk. You have a commission, a co-commission that's opening this week in san francon Keeper. It's the composer's David Hanlon, with a libretto by Stephanie Fleshman, and it opens this week at Opera Parallel in San Francisco. I want to talk about the piece, but then I also want to talk a little bit about the co-commission model and why that's working for you. But let's first talk about you know you say you do pieces that will appeal to your audience. We tell our stories, so tell me what drew you to the Pigeon Keeper as a story.

Cheryl Hickman:

So I think we're living in really difficult times, right, and the Pigeon Keeper is a story about othering other people and it's a story about immigration. And you know a stranger who, like all of the things that we're currently dealing with right, and how we've decided that some people are deserving of good lives and others are not, depending on where they were born. So the Pigeon Keeper is really about what we decide as a community when we welcome others into it, which and to me, being a Canadian, because we're having our own discussion right now about what it is to be a Canadian that you know we are a country built on the idea of multiculturalism, that we are made better by diversity. We're a stronger community by how diverse it is, and I firmly believe that, and the Pigeon Keeper is, at its heart, a story about that. It also has a children's chorus in it, which I love.

Cheryl Hickman:

It's only a small cast, three performers, but it really is how we can evolve as a society, when we deserve that, or when we decide that all people are deserving of respect and meeting people where they are, and that, to me, is really what the pigeon keeper is. So I think it's a worthwhile lesson, especially now we're living in a time that I think multiple countries have decided that other people are the reason why they're not doing well in life. Right, it's whatever demographic or race you decide is the problem for you not succeeding, and I think we have to push back against that, and I think how we do that is through art and through culture and through having those discussions and showing it on stage. So that's why we were really. I think when I first looked at the libretto and the score, it struck a chord in me, especially now where we're living in such divisive, hateful times, that the only way I can push back against that is to invest and create art that firmly says I do not believe that that is the case.

Michael Jones:

And it is opening this week. You have some of your singers down there.

Cheryl Hickman:

So we have an emerging artist program. We have five young artists this year. So we also and again because we're small, um, we often partner with uh. We had a wonderful partnership this year and are continuing to have. Some of our singers have gone to Pacific opera Victoria to cover roles there because, again, we want to give them as much opportunity as they can. And then two of our young singers, um are in San Francisco right now covering two roles and then they'll be there for opening night. I will not be because I've made the decision. It's I don't really want to be traveling to the US right now. I value our US partnerships and you know Opera Parallel is a like minded, wonderful company, but I do not feel right now that I want to be. You know, spending money in the United States.

Michael Jones:

The partnership with you said with Opera Parallel, I think there's Omaha.

Cheryl Hickman:

Opera and Santa Fe Opera. So Santa Fe Opera has this wonderful initiative where they often commission new work but they don't always present it, which I think is so. You know, sometimes the hard part or the most expensive part is the commissioning or finding work, or deciding. You know what you want, the repertoire, and because, again, like I would love to just commission and maybe not always present, but that's so, we partnered with them and and then with two other wonderful partners, opera Omaha and Opera Parallel. So it will go to Opera Omaha next and then we'll have the Canadian premiere in 2027 with our Canadian artists.

Michael Jones:

Which is amazing because it's an opera that, therefore, has already booked multiple presentations in different cities, which I think is a real challenge for how we create work. I think because there is a certain cachet to presenting the premiere of a work that it's sometimes it's sometimes even when we do commission easier to get that first production than to get it presented a second time because it's sexy, right?

Cheryl Hickman:

the world premiere is oh, I'm having a real premiere, whatever, I'm still getting a Canadian premiere like I don't. I'm not wedded to that. But certainly co-productions lessen the financial burden and I do think a lot of companies have this idea of how prohibitively expensive new work is. It's not right. So it's an investment in your community and your organization and it lives forever, right, like long after I'm gone. I will be if I never do anything. In my career I have helped to make other artistic work possible that lives forever. I'm okay with that.

Michael Jones:

That sounds like a great goal to have. So it's coming to you in 2027. Yes, and plans before then with Opera on the Avalon. So right now we're On stage. We're going to come to your video stuff in a second.

Cheryl Hickman:

So right now we're doing Last year we had a huge project about Newfoundland joining Confederation, which we called 75 on 75, which was a massive digital project, and this year we're doing another one. So we do like fall festivals and it's not full opera presentations, it's, you know, classical music in recital. So we have a fall festival and we'll have workshops for the new musical with Rene Orth and Kanika Ambrose sorry, the opera with Rene Orth and Kanika Ambrose. And then we do opera with Renee Orth and Kanika Ambrose, and then we're doing a new musical with Britta Johnson. So we'll be workshopping all of those over the next few years.

Cheryl Hickman:

But our next main stage work outside of digital is not till 2027. And again, that was the decision that we made, that if we didn't have the ability to do shows every year. So then after that we'll a new show on stage 27, 28, 29, because development costs a lot of money, takes a lot of time to do it correctly. So we had to make sure that our audiences still knew we were here, still were engaging with us, and for us that has been our digital engagement. So, no matter, you know what we're doing. We just don't disappear for two years and they're thinking where are we Right. So it's been a way for us to stay.

Michael Jones:

I would actually say more people have come to us through our digital work than the work that we've done in theatre While I've been to Newfoundland and I would encourage any of our listeners to actually go to St John's and to Newfoundland, because it's truly a magical place to visit. I was really fortunate to come there, but many of our listeners won't be able to make that journey. Traveling to St John's is actually quite a commitment from practically anywhere in Canada, so many won't be able to do that, but they still have the opportunity to engage with Opera on the Avalon. There is UTA TV UTA being the acronym for Opera on the Avalon which you can get to on your website. It's completely free. I know that. All I had to do was I registered there and then it let me into this entire bank of amazing videos. So why don't you tell us about your video work that people can see at operaontheavaloncom?

Cheryl Hickman:

So I will say this kind of goes back to our place of and I think this talks about, you know, colonial structures and all this kind of stuff that for too long in our country we have decided what good art is and who could do good art, right. So usually it meant you had to be in Vancouver, montreal or Toronto and everybody else was exempt from that, right? I think now we realize that that is absolutely foolishness. I'm not doing the same art they're doing in Toronto. Mine is different. It doesn't make it better or worse. The same art they're doing in Toronto, mine's different. It doesn't make it better or worse.

Cheryl Hickman:

And I think how we try to engage in Newfoundland Labrador is a very particular place that has a very long history of culture, of theater, of art, of poetry, of visual art. And I would say how Canadians know us or first have come to us is through our cultural identity. So if you look at CBC, there's a ton of Newfoundlanders on that. There's multiple shows. You know, gordon Pinsent, I think, was how a lot of Canadians would have first figured out who you know Newfoundlanders, labradorians were. We have a really, you know we were our own nation until 1949. So when we joined Canada. We did so because we paid back our war debt to Britain and we were bankrupt, not because we couldn't govern ourselves. We honored a pledge to pay back Britain and we did so. And I don't think Canadians are aware a lot of Canadians are aware of that history. So when I would go to Toronto and and uh, I remember people would say to me proudly like they were giving me a compliment, oh you don't have an accent. And I would think what does that mean? Like I've never heard people say to Irish people proudly, oh you don't sound Irish, and smile at you like they were complimenting you. So I think it was. You know, canadians were always told when Newfoundland joined that we had to and we were desperate and they took us like a charity case and poor Canada. So, and to me that was not how I understood growing up as a Newfoundland and Labradorian, because we are an incredibly proud, educated, diverse group of people and it's through culture that I found that pride and I also think that's how we've had a renaissance of who we are as a province, through CODCO or through Mary Walsh or through, you know, our musicians, mark Fewer, the violinist, all of these people. So that is why I think I really push back about the idea that only major centers produce good art.

Cheryl Hickman:

So that was where we decided we wanted to really showcase the province, who we were, who our artists were, because, again, as you said, people can't get here right. And we started our Digital the Rock Performs in COVID. When we had to pay people, we got lots of grant money, as most organizations did, and we put it right out the door and paid as many artists as we could and we thought, well, how can we do that safely Because we couldn't be in rooms. So we David Howells, our main photographer and cinematographer, and Roger Monder, director we all decided that we were going to hire as many artists as we could do videos multidisciplinary, not just opera singers and collaborate with those artists on a piece that they chose and to film it outside where we could socially distance. And that's how it started. Now we're doing documentaries. We have a new documentary coming out about a project that we did going right up the coast from St John's to Labrador. So we're doing not only short videos, we're actually doing, uh, small feature films and documentaries about that work. So it's really changed everything that we do with our organization. So we've really decided, you know, to work in different genres, multidisciplinary, uh, everything, and that's how, uh, I think for us a significant amount of thinking strategically as a company, that we just wanted to change the work that we were doing.

Cheryl Hickman:

And also, like, when I think about how visually you can see opera in Canada, you really can't right, we're really hemmed in by Canadian Actors' Equity regulations. It's very difficult for us to see live stage and that's problematic and I think we have to deal with that. But short videos we could easily do and that's what we do. So, like, if I want to see tomorrow's show that Vancouver Opera is doing, I can't see it Right Because it's prohibitively expensive for Vancouver Opera to bring that to me. Same thing with streaming. We stream all our shows and February our last world premiere was streamed around the world. I think we had something like 33 countries.

Cheryl Hickman:

So we are, we are being able to enlarge our community through that work, both from live performance and also digital recordings that we do. So now we're at the point where commissioning like I can't commission enough large scale works, we just don't have the resources to do it. So now we're commissioning smaller scale ones. So last year for again, our emerging artists program because young artists need to learn how to engage with living composers and librettists. They each got to work with Renee Orth, jennifer Higdon, jonathan Rowe, canadian composer, lila Palmer, the librettist, and Mark Adomo and Medoe Christie, who was one of our young artists who also wrote a libretto. So that's, you know. That's where we actually feel. Now we can start enlarging again the work that we're doing through doing large scale and small scale commissions, both in the digital world and on the main stage commissions, both in the digital world and on the main stage, and just talk specifically about these, these small works that you're commissioning for your young artists.

Michael Jones:

Um, the name of that series again, just we call it the emerging voices series emerging voices series.

Michael Jones:

if someone and I mentioned you can go to opera on the avaloncom and watch all of these series, both the Rock Performs the Emerging Voices series. Someone is starting and I'm not asking you to pick a favorite child because I don't think that's fair. But if someone who's going to the site for the first time and you had to pick one of the Emerging Voices videos for them to start with as an introduction to the series, what would you? What would you recommend?

Cheryl Hickman:

so I would say, as I just said to you in the answer, sometimes, you know, um, we asked for all the composers and librettos to come up with a four minute video. Marc adamos was eight minutes and at first we almost had a complete panic attack because that means, you know, you need longer film time, all all of these things. And we tried to keep it to. You know, videos of under four minutes, because we thought that's what audiences wanted. And, uh, anyway, we thought that, so, mark, so I could cut it. We thought, no, because that's you know. He said that's what the piece was, that's what we went with. It was a huge joy. So for us, that was again a lesson in the piece dictates what the piece is going to be and it's no need for me to stand in the creative way of that right. So and it was again that's now been a great starting point for our filmmakers has said this year well, we're going to throw out all those ideas of how long any of that's going to be and the emerging voices series we're doing this year. We're actually envisioning it as a 30 minute small film so that all of the pieces will intersect into each other. Uh, but it won't exist as four separate videos. It'll be 30 minutes of a of some type of film, which of which Lisa has written individual arias, but also a longer narrative. So that's. You know, that's exciting.

Cheryl Hickman:

So it was a very good, I think, for us, a really good way to start again being creatively flexible and not being stuck in all ways of thinking. And then we all said, well, why did we ever come up with that four minute idea? Anyway, and again, I think it's because most people consume art in that way. But also, you know, if you look at, people are consuming TikToks in 30 seconds. I'm not doing 30 second like, forget it. If you, if you cannot do the discipline of sitting down and watching a video, it's I'm not your, I'm not yours, right, it's, you're not for me and I'm not for you. So I, I think we're, we're just going to experiment more and see what happens out of that. And that was a good lesson. So I think in terms of that one, because it was our first year of doing it. They're all my favorite children, but that was a way for me to again think outside of the box.

Michael Jones:

And then of all of them.

Cheryl Hickman:

I would say one of my favorite ones was our partnership with Eastern Owl, which is an indigenous group of women from Newfoundland, labrador. They're an amazing, amazing band. They're not opera singers, but you know the rock performance. Newfoundland and Labrador is operatic in its landscape. So we you know, we don't care about that label either and they did. They wrote a beautiful song called Henrietta, about a woman in Newfoundland and Labrador who is still missing, who was, you know, murdered and they've never found her.

Cheryl Hickman:

And all the proceeds of the video we encourage people to donate to the Foundation for Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women and and that video is now part of a traveling exhibition with the Winnipeg Museum of Human Rights and it's going into the United States. And so you know, these are also things that it doesn't occur to us when we start these projects of where they could end up. But I remember when the museum called us about this partnership you know, life is funny, right? I thought if you could ever have told me that a video we would be doing for a small COVID project would end up there, I would not have thought that. And doing for a small COVID project would end up there, I would not have thought that.

Michael Jones:

And that's how you can have an effect in your community. You just spoke briefly about donations. When we first, when COVID first struck and many performing arts companies moved to virtual and online offerings, one of the big questions was how do you monetize it? And I talked about the fact that all of this material is available through your website for free. How do you monetize it, cheryl do?

Cheryl Hickman:

you. I don't think everything needs to be thought of in the lens for us about how much money can I make on that, because that's not what I'm doing as an artist. Right, don't get me wrong. I want to balance my books and we always start with um, I don't spend money I don't have, and I think we've been successful and never run.

Cheryl Hickman:

The only time I think we've ever in 16 years, run a deficit was in COVID, when we decided to pay every artist, and that was a decision our board made that morally, we had to do that, so we ran a deficit. I was happy to do it because it meant people ate, uh pay their rent for the year. So I think when we decided to do the digital thing, we did not want people to have the barrier of oh, you can only watch this or have a paywall, because what was good for us was that it allowed us to enlarge our community, to be seen anywhere around the world, to be a cultural ambassador, and that's not something, um, you know, if the money was going to be a barrier, I didn't want to have that happen. What we did do was say at the at the end of every video and within either, the rock performs, if it's on youtube or within udah tv, there's please, you know, if you feel so inclined, please donate, and people do so that's been, you know, and depending on the video it varies and that's been wonderful for us.

Cheryl Hickman:

So it's been a different way of monetizing it, so to speak. And then, you know, some people can't. They want to watch the video but they really can't afford it. That's okay, too, right, and the ones who do can't so. But I also think it's helped our work with our foundations and they see the work that we're doing and we've had a huge jump I think we're over 500 percent in our foundation foundational donations, because they see the work that we're doing in terms of, you know, inclusion and making our work diverse and reaching out to as many communities as possible, and they're supporting that as well.

Michael Jones:

I think that there are some really valuable lessons there. I'm conscious of the time, I'm conscious of your time, so I want to end today with some really really sort of speed round questions. So just the first answer that comes to your mind and a few answers so you're relaxing. It's the end of the day. You're sitting in your space at home, you're in your comfortable clothes, whatever. I won't ask what you're wearing. Um, I call it soft clothes. They're back. You're in your soft clothes, my soft clothes yep where are you sitting?

Michael Jones:

in your house?

Cheryl Hickman:

uh, when at that time my living room I have some, usually my living room.

Michael Jones:

Windows.

Cheryl Hickman:

Two windows. But what I usually do when I come home is I check Instagram because I love Instagram just for like pretty things. I hate Facebook or any of that. Twitter, god forbid. I usually check that. And then I'm a huge needle pointer, which I know so like I love all the. I love crochet, I love needle point, I love painting, I love puzzles. So then I usually read I, you know, check Instagram, or I do needle point, yeah. Or I watch some stupid comedy with somebody like Will Ferrell which makes me beer or a dateline. Anyone who's getting murdered, I'm up for that too.

Michael Jones:

And what are you eating and drinking as you relax?

Cheryl Hickman:

Oh God, I know it's terrible, but I love real Coke. I'm not a drinker, but real Coke I do love. And, um, I don't know if you have them in the rest of Canada, but I love Humpty, dumpty Cheesies, which are the soft ones. So that's my junk. Oh, and there's, there's a wonderful, uh bakery here that does gelato ice cream place and they have one called pride cake which is so good. Um, yeah, and it's, I don't know what it is. It's like some every color of the rainbow cake. It's pretty good well, that's summer, it's pride cake.

Cheryl Hickman:

If it's the winter, it's a cheesy okay. Well, that's that's good I like my ice cream diverse. There you go well.

Michael Jones:

Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm sure that my our listeners are enjoying this just as much as I have. It is a pleasure to talk to you, cheryl. It's really interesting to learn about opera on the Avalon and I hope that as many of our listeners as possible will actually come to visit you so they can understand the magic of St John's, they can go to the rooms, they can be there in the late summer, early fall, for, like festival after festival, it's really quite wonderful time to go to St John's but also so that they know they can check you out online to see your videos, to see UTA TV and to use maybe use that as they go home tonight and get into their soft clothes.

Cheryl Hickman:

Well, you know what? Well, you know what. In all honesty, as I do this work and I go across the country to see other companies, I really encourage Canadians to visit every part of it. They've realized how special it is and I think that's really important for us now, as Canadians, is to think about, because I think we've been through our own time of how divisive the country has become, that we are better by everybody in it, how diverse we are, the different cultures that we have, you know, and to stop thinking of the negativity that has been, I think, for the last few years, very strong in the Canadian Opera Company, but we also need those smaller ones. We need to all celebrate them as Canadians, and I encourage all of us to do so and to support your cultural industry.

Michael Jones:

Absolutely. And on those words I think we will close. Thank you to our listeners for joining us for this issue of Opera Glasses, this episode of Opera Glasses. I am your host, michael Jones. I've been chatting with Cheryl Hickman and we are pleased to bring this to you from Opera Canada Magazine and we hope that you will join us for the next episode. Thanks for listening.